Comment on The Things You Say

  1. mya (Guest) on Chapter 1 Sun 19 Aug 2012 04:42PM UTC

    I don't have ADD or ADHD but I love reading well written, multi-faceted characters. To that end, accuracy adds dimension and allows you to step into that person shoes. I think twisting things to meet ones needs for a story is a cop out. Its no better than someone who has no personal knowledge or close aquaintances of a person of color writing a fic about someone who is and just throwing out random stereotypes. It would be more than willful ignorance it would downright offensive. And yes, I am a person of color and if I had dollar for every fic I cringed through while a writer obviously threw in every stereotype or myth about my race I'd have enough money to build an instituition for better fanfic! A yeah I'm bringing the snark since I really don't think sami or meg were. I think this one article will more good than a million comments. A good writer does research, period.

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    1. sami on Chapter 1 Mon 20 Aug 2012 10:54PM UTC

      Thanks.

      To me, twisting things to fit your story is also kind of bad writing, especially if it's in a way that's offensive. If your plot hinges on something like ADHD not working at all actually like ADHD, then you need to rework your plot, and if your plot can't work out without it, well, come up with a new plot, because your plot *doesn't actually work*. It's like, if your plot depended on Scott being able to turn into an actual, literal wolf, then *tough*, because he *can't*. If your plot depends on Stiles being able to stay up for a week at a time by taking all the Adderall and then picking up some more from the pharmacy, then *tough*, because he *can't*.

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    2. distractionpie on Chapter 1 Tue 28 Aug 2012 07:23PM UTC

      I think this is quite a contentious issue. Absolutely fics which are actively focusing on ADHD need to be properly researched but to say that people who haven't done that are bad writers or shouldn't be allowed to write about the topic is utterly unreasonable. My total extent of research on Stiles' ADHD was having a friend with a mild/moderate case of it and ten minutes googling Adderall because I hadn't heard of it before.

      I also cringed at your remarks regarding race, because while throwing out random stereotypes is clearly not the best way to go about it to say that people who have no personal knowledge on the subject shouldn't be allowed to write about it is absurd. I'm white British, I lived in a fairly multicultural city until I was 8 must have spent most of my life in an almost eerily white town - does that mean I shouldn't be allowed to write people of colour? No. Because first and foremostly I'm writing people.

      In the end this is fanfiction, it's something people write for pleasure, and for me scientific accuracy isn't necessarily essential as long as it's not completely fascicle.

      I hate to sound like I'm disagreeing with all your points, I think the fact that you've put this information together to make it more accessible is great but I think a lot of the authors your trying to target with this information aren't going to get to the actual information because they're going to open this and be confronted with what feels a lot like you telling them that they shouldn't be writing about this topic because they don't know enough about it. And I think it would be a shame to intimidate people away from finding out more simply by making the information feel unapproachable.

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      1. sami on Chapter 1 Wed 29 Aug 2012 05:14PM UTC

        Wow, it's like RaceFail never happened.

        If you're white British, and you planned to write people of colour who are American, especially if they were Native American as in Meg's example, I would, in fact, like to think that you would do some serious research on the subject *and* get someone to read it over for localisation issues, because otherwise, no, you shouldn't be allowed to write them.

        The thing is, as much as I appreciate your tone argument here, ultimately it comes down to a fairly simple question: Do you want to be someone who goes through life making other people miserable, or do you not?

        If you don't want to be making people miserable, then sorry, you do in fact have to do your fucking research, because being misrepresented or insulted in fiction is hurtful and makes people miserable.

        If you value your own laziness more than you do other people's feelings, then handwave it and write all you want about how Stiles is hyped up on too much Adderall, because he took an entire month's prescription in a week but it's fine because he'll go pick up some more tomorrow. And write Boyd talking about how he wants to snog Erica, too, why not? Because really, being a giant arse is a valid lifestyle choice. Just don't complain when we judge you for it.

        Yes, doing research takes effort. Effort is not a dirty word. Work is not bad for you. Good writing takes effort, and you have to work at it. There is no field of activity, no hobby or human endeavour of any value whatsoever, that does not require effort, that contains no element of work. I for one will not apologise for helping to point that out to people.

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        1. distractionpie on Chapter 1 Wed 29 Aug 2012 05:35PM UTC

          Yeah but I'm not saying never do any research. I'm not saying talk about controversial issues without knowing anything about them. All I'm saying is the tone you take in your introduction and the tone you've taken here sound a lot less like you're trying to encourage people to learn before they write and a lot more like you're having a go.

          One the hardest things I've ever researched was dyslexia. Why? Because whenever I tried the answer I got was 'you aren't dyslexia, you can't understand' which fine, people are allowed to say that, but there's a difference between perpetuating harmful stereotypes due to laziness and putting your hand up and saying "hey, sorry guys, I have a limited understanding of this subject area, so don't take this too seriously."

          If I were writing a textbook on ADHD I sure as hell would research it to death, if I were writing a novel with an ADHD character then, again, I'd put in a lot of research. But for a quick bit of weekend fan-fiction I'm not going to trawl through textbooks getting perfectly accurate information, that's not laziness that's keeping thing in proportion.

          I've said it once and it bears repeating, I think putting together a primer like this is a brilliant idea both for writing purposes and for general education purposes, but you're likely to get a lot more support if you opened with something a little more educational and a little less like an attack on people who don't already know.

          And while I'm complete comfortable being told where I can improve and what I might like to avoid and certainly suggesting research is a sound piece of advice, in the end you've got no place telling me what I can and cannot write. Especially not in fanfiction, when I'm writing foremostly for my own entertainment.

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          1. sami on Chapter 1 Thu 30 Aug 2012 12:48AM UTC

            ~ TOOOONE ~

            Sorry, not going to apologise for Meg pointing out the case for why this stuff matters. And the fact that I am putting thousands of words into more-or-less doing all the research for people should, I think, make it clear that I am, in fact, not expecting people to spend weeks on research alone. In theory, when I've finished my part - which will be soon, and would already have happened except I came down with a nasty cold - this will be, all by itself, sufficient information for writing Stiles.

            I've said it once and it bears repeating, ~ TOOOONE ~

            I'm not saying what you can and can't write, really, because I have zero power to enforce that. I'm more pointing out what is and is not likely to make various people conclude that you're a moron or an arse or both. (If you're writing foremostly for your own entertainment, I would point out that it is, in fact, legal not to put things on the internet. In the silent confines of your own hard drive, no-one can tell how terrible or how badly-researched something is.)

            If you don't want to do research for your quick bit of weekend fan-fiction, that's a choice you can always make... although I'll just point out the implications of that statement.

            - That you will presumably never again write in that fandom (or else your research would be for all your writing, not just that one piece).
            - That you have no intellectual curiosity, and resent learning.
            - That you are indifferent to the quality of your writing, because any effort required for you to ensure that it isn't terrible is a dreadful imposition.
            - That anyone who has the medical condition or minority status to which your fiction refers, or has a loved one who does, doesn't matter. If something you write hurts them, upsets them, makes them cry, whatever, you don't care. You consider your own whim and convenience to be more important than their pain.

            I know you keep saying you think this is brilliant, but at the same time, you keep complaining about how we did not sufficiently sweet-talk you about it, so I'm thinking you're feeling a bit stung, and then you went and replied to an actual person of colour's comment to say how you totally get to write people of colour without doing any research, so I'm thinking you're feeling a bit defensive, and I'm thinking my sympathy is kinda limited.

            Would you be offended if I wrote fiction featuring English characters who were all either drunken, racist chavs or drunken, racist fox-hunting aristocracy? Hell, I've spent a couple of weeks in England - let's throw in the odd alcoholic, but not at this present moment drunk, racist middle-class dickhead. That's all of them, right? And the Welsh are all sheep-fuckers. And I'll write as if Scotland consists entirely of the Glasgow tenements. I'd throw in a joke here about acting like I think Northern Ireland is part of Great Britain, but as far as I can tell most actual English people think that, because English people are, of course, stupid and bad at geography.

            People are people. But, and this is important, that means that real, non-fictional people have feelings, and it does, in fact, hurt people when you fail to give any value to accuracy to their real-life pain and experience.

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            1. distractionpie on Chapter 1 Thu 30 Aug 2012 07:26AM UTC

              Personally? I'm not offended by your intro in the slightest. All I was saying was that, recalling my own previous research experiences, the extent to which your introduction criticizes those who haven't done the research previously is the sort of thing that I think could be off-putting, particularly to younger and less serious writers, and as this is such a useful and valuable resource it would be a shame for people to open it wanting to learn more, only to click right back out of it because you're introduction is so hard on people who might be looking to improve as have made mistakes before.

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              1. Trai on Chapter 1 Thu 13 Feb 2014 02:58PM UTC

                Yep, honey vs vinegar thing

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