This is the most fascinating thing about the Lucent Brood though!!! *Does* the gift of Light absolve them of their sins? The cornerstone question is whether the gift of Light (and the amnesia that comes with it) makes you a new person, allowing you a second chance in life. Crow is not Uldren, it's been highlighted throughout most of his arc (though I admit some of the lore from Defiance muddied the waters a bit), and so he is not responsible for Uldren's crimes. He's a different person, even now that he has Uldren's memories. Is it fair? Well, that's a philosophical question. Is forgiveness ever fair? Is letting someone off without any sort of retribution for their wrongdoings just? This question fascinates me, and a lot of tropes in Destiny revolves around it, I think.
(An important disclaimer here: Most of this fic was planned and written before we got any post-Witch Queen lore, so all my argumentation is based solely on what we got in TWQ. In this story the Lucent Brood and Savathûn are two weeks old and Season of the Witch didn't happen lmao, because oh boy, that is a whole different can of worms.)
So. The whole reason for why Light-bound Hive are such a disruptive idea is their past, right? I mean, the Eliksni have pillaged and ravaged humanity for centuries, but their own story is tragic enough that we can argue in favour of Misraaks and House Light. They're a new, different generation, who *chose* to turn away from their old ways and seek peace. The Hive though--those guys' entire existence was all about conquest and destruction, taking billions of lives and ruining billions more. They were the Light's most adamant enemies. Yeah they had a tragic backstory, but that doesn't absolve them of the responsibility as the monsters they became.
And then there's the Traveler who forgives them and gives them the Light. Just like that. And where's justice in this?
What drew me to the Lucent Brood in the first place, in the first days of Witch Queen, was the philosophical/moral dilemma they posed. If being given the Light makes you a new person -- as in the case of Crow -- then by this logic the Lucent Brood can't be held responsible for all the crimes of their past. No matter how horrifying they were. And so, by this logic, when we crash into Sav's throne world completely unprompted and start murdering Hive and Ghosts left and right, we're enacting vigilante justice on people who don't deserve it, because we're trying to punish them for something they didn't do. Because they're new beings now. And as you've pointed out, Uldren's crimes are NOTHING compared to what the Hive in general and Savathûn in particular have done! And yet the Light is now compelling us to just forgive it all.
That's the whole point. The inherent injustice of mercy. The Lucent Brood, two weeks into their new life -- and the Guardians who are immediately bringing violence into that new life. The Guardians, who are now the killers and the pillagers. Are we justified in doing this? Is it fair? Was the Traveler's act of mercy fair? Would executing Crow for Uldren's crimes be justice? What's the difference between pardoning him and pardoning the Hive? Should there be a difference? And if so, then why? And at which level of atrocity of past crimes the line should be drawn? Who deserves mercy? Can you even deserve it? Etc.
And also, regarding specifically Immaru's outburst -- there's a lore entry in Lucent Tales where he rages at Guardians for killing Ghosts, comparing it to "shooting the medic", and I really liked that justification for his character and motivations. Do I personally agree with him calling Guardians out on their violence and straight up comparing us to the Hive? Not entirely. But it's still interesting how the turntables have tabled, how the things we're doing to the Hive now are the things they used to do to us, and we used to perceive them as unthinkable atrocities. This story is called "Dark Mirror" for a reason haha.
(Sorry for the wall of text lmao, I just uhhh started typing and couldn't stop until I reached half of the allowed comment length because I have no inhibitions at 3 am.)
I'll admit that I myself more or less flew into a murderess rage when Fighting a Hive Lighbear for the first time, (Cause I was on legend and he killed me 10 different times.) and got so worked up and pissed I just switched over to Thorn and Stasis for the rest of the campaign. Now I don't like killing ghosts, my *Guardian* does not like killing ghosts, but she will if they get within 25 feet of her, like if there's thrall around her that aren't attacking she'll just vibe with them, but the moment just one attacks its indiscriminate murder time.
Yeah the reason I'm so against Light bound Hive is because of their past, like oh sure from what we've seen most of the higher command structure of the Brood got reborn in Light. But I'm sure several did not and the ones not reborn in Light, that aren't natural apart of the Lucent Brood, (I.E born in it) I believe should understand why the Guardians are swarming through the thrown world or rather at least the older ones that survived the events of Dark Below and Taken King should.
Like had we been given another option than to run in guns blazing I would have taken it, but well cabal were already there... hmm now that I think about it its kind of odd that the Cabal didn't join us at all storming the thrown world... where was I in my point? Don't think I have one yet. Ok so With Lucent Hive like Iuzaku I think she's the only example actually, but I like her as she *Chose* not to kill a ghost when she had the change, she in that moment proved herself better than other lighbears both Hive and Human when she chose not to simply kill the ghost.
There are certain examples I a willing to forgive Lucent Brood for, and that's when we don't know their crimes. Would I have forgiven a resurrected Oryx? I myself don't know, but I myself will never forgive Savathun unless she does like 15 millennium of community service to show that she, now that she remembers is repenting for her crimes. We know that Savathun was instrumental for stopping the collapse in killing Nezerac, but she was also instrumental in ensuring Humanity nearly got rendered another tally on the hives list of, 'things we have rendered extinct' and... uh I lost my point. Oh well I'll come back latter when I'm more awake.
No He was not less bad than Savathun, the thing that marks him different from Savathun on the hives genocide quest however is that he initially hesitated and wanted peace and both Savathun and Xivu were disgusted by this or something like that and killed him. Trapping him in his throne world for a time until he made his return with the 'Eternal Proof' and agreeing that the Sword Logic was supreme and it was after this even did Savathun start to think her brother had been right. Oryx is ultimately worse in my eyes because of two reasons. He used the Taken yes, established the tithe system and helped broker the pact with the Worm Gods. But the key difference into pushing him onto the full on genocide we see him promote in the books of sorrow is his Sisters killing him and sending him to his thrown world the first time.
Afaik Sav was pretty much on board with the whole genocide plan from the beginning and killed Oryx specifically because he'd shown what she believed to have been weakness. The things that pushed Oryx to embracing the sword logic in full were more layered; the worm god that's seen narrating that chapter of Books pretty much says it out right. The first thing was his oath to kill Taox and learn the truth about the syzygy, and generally what he perceived as duty to his people. The second was undoubtedly the peer pressure of his sisters, the promise of power the Deep presented, and the hope for vengeance and a better fate for his people. And the third was the hunger. He couldn't just stop killing if he wanted to say alive, at this point; his worm must feed.
At the same time, Savathûn was them the first one to question the sword logic, seeing as she's having doubts and voicing them to Oryx still in the Books of Sorrow themselves. Which is both funny and fascinating, for her to have been the instigator of the whole thing, and then the first to doubt and turn away.
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Ryellee on Chapter 4 Sun 21 Jul 2024 12:38AM UTC
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